![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Also during the lull between panels we got the squirrel mini-badge to go around ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
bunny_hugger's puppet Chitter's neck. I'm surprised that given the number of people carrying puppets around there weren't more people getting mini-badges for them, or adding accessories like the scarf she had Chitter wear. The scarf was in part self-defense: the Chitter squirrel she has is a not particularly rare model and tags like this help sort out ownership. Mini-badges would also help.
Another little pastime for me was marvelling at skylerbunny for taking action on something that, actually, he and I had talked about before. See, one of the things we have noticed is that furry artists tend to be impoverished, even beyond the normal levels of impoverishment to be expected for furries or artists or the intersection of those sets. And our quick diagnosis of why is pretty simple: they set commission rates way too low.
Our analysis is that, basically, artists have roughly the same economic niche that consultants have: there are a fair number of clients who could be talked into buying their services, and there's a not irrational fear of having no clients, and this seems to encourage making sure that one is never short of work by setting the rate low enough that you'll never be turned away. And that's fine if all you want is to fill your hours with work. But the first rule a consultant is supposed to learn --- and I say this admitting that neither of us made it in consulting roles, at least so far --- is to figure out how much you want to earn per hour. Then figure out how long a job will take. This tells you where to set your rates.
This perhaps sounds obvious. But I know, for example, that woodlander recently did a little bit of selling commissions for icon work at three dollars per icon. At that rate, he's earning less than minimum wage if the icon takes more than 25 minutes to do. Yes, I know some people want to draw just to draw and are happy making enough to afford their art supplies and maybe lunch, but, there's a lot of people out there under-pricing themselves.
So skylerbunny was exhibiting his desire to put some kind of floor under artist prices by arguing with Skrimpf, a rather talented fellow in Artists' Alley, that he just was not charging enough and should be asking for more and if he wasn't going to ask for more skylerbunny was just going to refuse to buy anything until he charged more. This was a particularly pathological case, as Skrimpf was steadily putting up possible suggested prices about would maybe seven dollars be all right for a three-by-five badge in colored pencil and maybe six would be all right perhaps less if skylerbunny saw it and didn't like how it came out and ... Well, skylerbunny was having none of this.
One of the most popular psychology pieces of the past decade, on the Internet at least, has to be the Dunning-Kruger Effect which indicated that people who were really incompetent at a task vastly overrated their abilities. Skrimpf has whatever the inverse of that effect is, and don't tell me that won't be a popular Internet Psychology Idea for the future: while he's quite skilled and has a distinctive and entertaining style he doesn't seem to believe he's reached even a minimum level of competence. If his prices were about four times what they are, this might be attributed to putting forth a pleasantly humble bit of salesmanship. As it is, I had to fend off his offer of an extra print for free just because I was buying some.
skylerbunny would go on to get a badge which looked very nice and captured his persona in a way not like anyone had done before. The only thing he found to fault in the badge as it turned out was that Skrimpf failed to put his signature on it. I'm not sure how much skylerbunny bid up the price from what Skrimpf was asking, but I know it was something nonzero, and good for him.
Trivia: Reuters's first news scoop came on 10 January 1859, in summarizing a speech the King of Sardinia was giving to the opening of parliament. Oddly, folklore would for decades accept that Reuters's first scoop had come the week before in reporting a speech by Napoleon III on New Year's Day, even though the content had appeared a day earlier in the Times of London. Source: The Power of News: The History of Reuters, Donald Read.
Currently Reading: An ABC Of Science Fiction: Twenty-Six Excursions Into The Fantastic, Editor Tom Boardman Jr. With 26 stories, by authors with last names that go through nearly every letter of the alphabet (X is represented pseudonymously) in 222 pages these are very short things prone to punch-line endings you can see coming from several dozen pages back. Still, Arthur C Clarke, Damon Knight, Chad Oliver, Frederick Pohl, Clifford Simak all bundled together, who's going to find serious fault with that?
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-10 05:50 am (UTC)Well... if you think an artist is undercharging, they will usually accept tips. Perhaps Skyler could have tipped him an extra $5 or whatever on top of what he was asking?
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-12 06:20 am (UTC)I believe that he did, even after all the trying to nudge Skrimpf into a fairer price. (I added tips to what I bought too, for that matter.) But that fixes only the one transaction, and he's enthusiastic (modestly) about fixing the whole nature of the artist-commissioner process, which may be why he was at it so long.
For those who haven't seen the artist in particular question, by the way, http://www.furaffinity.net/full/2353607/ (http://www.furaffinity.net/full/2353607/) offers a fair example (and one of the prints I bought; the colors are considerably more vivid in real life). Now ask yourself, is he charging enough for that work? Regardless of what he is charging?
(no subject)
Date: 2010-04-14 02:04 am (UTC)I'm pretty sure he accepts barter, too. I sent him some chocolate once and got a sketch back.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-10 06:03 am (UTC)The only seriously problem I see is a lot of people in the fandom seem to have the expectation now of a certain price that is pretty low, and one that seems to have actually gone lower. Throw in people losing jobs and looking to make a little extra to make ends meet (i.e. desperate) and a fairly young average age of fans (i.e. probably not making a lot themselves) and someone charging an appropriate rate could have themselves quickly priced out of the market.
Its funny if you think about it... a number would consider it nasty to treat someone they see as having talent like a manager treats a fast food employee (and I know what that feels like), but when you think about it, that's exactly what many do. Less than minimum wage, and they may then turn around and nitpick it all over. Actually, that's worse treatment.
I suppose if there is an upside, its that work done for commissions is drawing practice of a sort, and in most cases you can post the results, adding to your online portfolio, but this still shouldn't reduce the price.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-13 05:39 am (UTC)That's another ... well, let's call it fundamental economic problem of furry artwork. Artists don't charge enough; with some reason they're afraid to charge more --- when anybody who has heard of a pencil has a DeviantArt account and will offer commissions it's very easy to imagine you're pricing yourself out of the market, especially considering the stereotypical furry fan has an income of nearly twelve dollars from doing computer stuff (on the side from school) and uses most of it to go to cons.
Add the frequently horrible relations between commissioner and artist and you've got nearly the perfect template for the dysfunctional, don't-ever-do-this employer/contractor relationship. About the only way to make it worse would be to add romantic or sexual favors into the exchange and oh, good heavens, some folks do that, don't they?
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-14 03:15 am (UTC)Well, if there's no commissions coming in, you may either be charging too much or just be.. a so-so advertiser. There's a lot of ways to self-advertise in the fandom, and some people do it incredibly well.
I think it's best to start low, steadily lift prices, and try to find the magic zone where the money coming in is the most you can get for the amount of time you want to put into art. Tricky, but doable.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-15 05:35 am (UTC)Self-advertising is another grand problem, particularly as (near as I can determine) the typical furry artist feels, ``I guess this isn't too awful even though the scanner killed it''.
Maybe what furry artists could really use is skilled agents who broker commissions at livable wages. Unfortunately, no furry has the business sense to pull that off, and adding non-furries to the mix would make the whole project self-combust.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-10 06:12 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-13 05:47 am (UTC)That he does, and wouldn't it help him to get a name, too?
Furry artists may have it worse than most, but the problem shows up in most of the arts
Date: 2010-01-10 08:52 am (UTC)I'm not going to count the "homwork" of arrangng my sheet music into set-list order and copying chords onto index cards for the tunes I didn't already have chord cards for (this gig was mostly not our usual repertoire), though maybe I should. Likewise for solo practice tie ("woodshedding"). Counting time spent specifically on reading and answering email related to this gig might be pushing it. But because this was not our standard repertoire, there's more data ...
It's usually difficult to meaningfully divvy up rehearsal time according to which gig it should count for, but the different music makes it easy to sa which rehearsals were For This Gig. I made it to two rehearsals specifically for tonight, and there was at least one more that I missed. I probably shouldn't count driving to rehearsals, since those count as "in the primary workplace" events even though we usually hold rehearsals in a different band member's house each time (though in terms of how much of My Life I'm spending on this, driving to rehearsals is still time spent, "commuting" isn't usually included in the $/hour math), and I was late to one of 'em, so let's say 3:40 of rehearsal instead of the full four hours. So now we're up to nine and a half hours, at about eight and a half dollars an hour, and only as high as that because I missed rehearsal time that the money would otherwise be divided farther by.
Suddenly, $80 for an evenings playing really doesn't sound like a whole lot of money (and I haven't counted mileage expenses yet). But from the client's point of view, they're only paying for an evening worth of service, with all the rehearsal/prep tie being invisible to them, so $80/musician probably feels like they're paying us handsomely for our music.
This may explain the bumper sticker we've seen that says, "Real musicians have day jobs".
At one point when I was having trouble paying for gasoline (well, more trouble than usual), I added up what it cost me in gasoline alone to get to rehearsals and back, and worked out how any gigs a month we had to average in order for me to break even on fuel costs alone.
How many jewelers and other crafters price their work based on "a reasonable amount" over the cost of their materials, completely forgetting to pay themselves even a low-side-of-reasonable wage for their labour? How many of their customers would flinch if they saw a price tag that really reflected the labour?
Re: Furry artists may have it worse than most, but the problem shows up in most of the arts
Date: 2010-01-15 05:56 am (UTC)Oh, now, musicians have it really awful and I probably should've thought of that as a point of comparison before. The drain of rate-of-pay to the time it takes setting up and testing equipment, not to mention travel time [1], or rehearsal or general practice ... well, it leaves me a little glad I don't have enough musical talent to be tempted to do anything in that line other than occasionally hum the tunes from Singing In The Rain while showering or hopping down stairs.
[1] My father made very clear that whatever I did in consulting, if it was done by the hour, I must make clear that my time starts the moment I leave my front door and does not end until I go back through my front door. (But I may not make personal side trips however mileage- or time-efficient that would be.) I appreciate the wisdom of this choice, although I don't have people trying to get me to consult for them.
Yes and No - Your View of Economics is somewhat Faulty
Date: 2010-01-10 11:32 pm (UTC)Now say each furry at the most would need to share a room with one other person I think you're absolutely right the market could bear higher prices. However most folks share four to a room ideally so therefore money is an issue. Keep in mind money also has to be spent for food per day at con (ideally at some sort of restaurant) and than additional monies are spent usually for the bigger cons for an airline ticket to the venue. Slowly you're seeing all the money eaten away by the "costs of being there".
Now many furs are also in the twenty-thirty category in age which means they are still in school or at the beginning of their career and therefore not neccessarily making the most money they can. I estimate costs to attend convention are close to at least one month's rent and a food bill, before good purchased.
What I do agree with though is tipping Artists for their good work, keep in mind the most common custom artwork is the badge art and is also the most valued and useful commodity as it is usable throughout the year but typically only fan gatherings and well conventions.
So the only true way for this to work is perhaps a sliding scale, since an artist can't really judge others and how much they have it is up to the buyer to be generous, whether fair or not.
I think the ideal amount an artist can make is about a dollar to a dollar fifty per minute which would come to 60-90 an hour which would be quite fair. On average the lesser known artist probably make 25-50 cents per minute which only comes to about 30$ an hour, a survivable amount.but nothing one could live off of.
Re: Yes and No - Your View of Economics is somewhat Faulty
Date: 2010-01-14 04:41 am (UTC)#1. Badges do more. By which I mean, they are now a lot more essential in actually finding the names of people as the 'community' grows in size. With thousands of people at a Furry convention, it's easier to find someone with a good badge than it is without them.
#2. People want better badges. More than just a "This is my name and I'm a wolf", fans generally plan on attending multiple conventions a year, and on attending for many years. The trend is towards badges as high-quality representational art, not quickie doodles.. further encouraged by more conventions moving to laminated or plastic badges over the 'wraparound blank'.
#3. Badges are color now. This is really an effect of #2, but badges simply used to occur a lot more in black and white. Nowadays they're almost universally color pieces, which costs more.
Re: Yes and No - Your View of Economics is somewhat Faulty
Date: 2010-01-15 06:33 am (UTC)Con badges were the part I had the toughest time deciding whether to write explicitly about in this economics-of-furry-art discussion, actually, since they seem to me to be not so desperately underpriced. A badge price of around $25 to $50, assuming that it doesn't take over an hour to produce, is a decent hourly wage. It's seasonal sales, I imagine --- I have to expect being at a convention for the weekend draws more work than it just being, say, March does --- but that's just more reason to get the work in while it's in high demand.
Re: Yes and No - Your View of Economics is somewhat Faulty
Date: 2010-01-15 09:15 am (UTC)Re: Yes and No - Your View of Economics is somewhat Faulty
Date: 2010-01-15 06:20 am (UTC)Believe me, I know that the average furry is pretty near dirt-poor and can only barely afford what art they commission. On the other hand, even modest raises in commission rates would benefit artists considerably. Would an artist worth hiring for (say) $25 be impossibly expensive at $30? At $35? For some people, I suppose, the higher price is just out of range ... although if the ten-dollar raise costs less than about a third of all potential commissioners, then the artist comes out ahead and without having to do any more work.
The effect's less dramatic the higher the baseline price is, but I think still there's a terrible lack of data on what people are willing to pay, and how changes in prices would affect commission rates.
I admit it's easy for me to side with ``artists should be paid more'', considering that I have got enough to commission pretty near anything I'd want (and a bit hypocritical in that I don't commission much) and don't have to worry about whether something is $25 or $35 or even $45, but I would like artists to be able to afford both living and doing art and I want to help that along.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-14 03:09 am (UTC)The artists that make the msot money do not have competition and realize it; they are the Heather Brutons and Blotches, who will always have a lineup at their table even as their prices get positively stratospeheric. Lesser artists still usually underprice, but... uniqueness is such a high value of furry art. If you're not out of that Artist's Alley morass of average, it's hard to charge much more than the guy or gal sitting to your left, unless they're full on commissions.
But I agree on the overall principle. Quite a few furry artists could increase their costs significantly and still remain just as 'booked' as they presently are. As I told Shawntae Howard, notably.. "You want someone's reaction to be "Oh, Eek, you're charging that much? Yikes. But. Mmm. You're worth it, so..." and in enough quantity to keep busy.
Also I've gotten the point across by saying to one artist, 'If I were to pay you $100 to move my sketchbook tot he top of the pile- just as an example- would you?" "Mmm... yeah, i would." "Then start the pile at that price."
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-15 06:26 am (UTC)Oh, now, that's an excellent way to nudge an artist up to a better price on the commission. I'll have to remember that next time I get around to con-going.
Still, the whole economic reality is messed up when at least some consumers are trying to get the producers to hike their prices significantly.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-01-15 09:13 am (UTC)..though even then I'll probably lean on Lisa some, give her one sketchbook and tell her "Make Ken draw this for me. He'll love it." . Because I don't want to spend more than I have to, and I'll jump on bargains now and then. :)